How to Become a Badass Agile Coach: Bob Galen

YC: Welcome Bob to the podcast today. 

BG: Thank you Yadi. I appreciate, and I hope I'm pronouncing your name right. So, but I appreciate the invitation. So I'm looking forward to our conversation. 

YC: Yes, you are pronouncing it right. And yeah, so I've been, I'm a fan of your content and also you were so gracious to provide one of the events from Tampa Bay Agile and I hear you do that a lot in terms of coming into different events and offering your expertise. So this is great. And I want to talk to you a lot about Agile coaching specifically, me being an Agile coaching and building my skills and I want to learn more. And also for the audience too, because a lot of our audience members they're either in IT or project management. And I feel like they're, even if they're not necessarily Agile coaches per se, they could definitely benefit from some of your insights. But before we dive into the specifics, what made you want to go into Agile coaching or what did you pick your particular career field? 

BG: I've written recently, I said there's two paths that I've seen coaches. Some coaches come in from a practitioner. So I came in from the practitioner. I was a software developer a years ago, so a long time ago. And then I was a leader. And then over time, and I started playing around with Agile methods early on in the late 90s, early 2000s. And then I realized as I was leading larger and larger teams, I needed to coach them. So I was coaching folks on professional development, coaching team members. I was operating the Scrum Master sometimes. And it really wasn't a coach. Early in Agile, there wasn't a role of coach. So I was coaching. But I didn't think of it that way. 

And then one day, maybe around, you know, 2010 or so, I started thinking, Oh, you know what? There's a book, Lisa Adkins' produce a book then. And I was like, it's not the only thing I do, but I'm an actual coach. So I came from technology or domain experience, and I moved into coaching. I think some people take the different approaches. They move into, they become a coach, and then start getting domain experience, if that makes sense. So, so I sort of backed into it. I was doing it, and I don't know if I, you know, I didn't realize I was doing it. I think that was a good, I like my, I like my journey, because it's, it's sort of, I wasn't intending to be a coach. 
So maybe I'm the accidental, agile coach or something like that. 

YC: Wonderful. And let's clarify first to make sure that what is Agile Coaching? Because it's differently from, let's say, executive coaching. So could you describe what is Agile Coaching? 

BG: I mean, what I would recommend everyone does is search for something called the Agile Coaching Growth Wheel, all one word. And it's agilecoachinggrowthwheel .org. 
And what you'll see is a circle. And what it represents is all of the skills or competencies. So it's a wheel that identifies coaching competencies for Agile Coaches. Now, everyone, don't get caught up. You don't have to, in order to be an Agile Coach, you don't have to be strong in all of the competencies. So don't be scared. It has quite a few competencies. But what it does do is it talks about the depth and breadth, from my point of view, of Agile Coaching. 

So some of the competencies that they talk about are Agile Lean Practitioner, or what I think of as your Agile Lean Chops, talks about coaching. Professional coaching is a competency or a stance. I use the term competency and stance pretty interchangeably. Facilitation, mentoring, teaching, advising, or consulting, leading, transforming, are all stances from the Agile Coaching Growth Wheel. So to me, an Agile Coach is someone who has some skill and ability to what I would think of as dance around the wheel. Some Agile Coaches are, are, I think, you know, they have one strong competency, and they're not very well -rounded. And to me, that makes them a weak coach or a vulnerable coach. If they're, if they're coaching clients need something else from them, they only have, they only, what's that metaphor? If you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So you don't, you don't want to fall into that. So you need more competencies or skills, but you don't need to be strong in all of them. So I, what I would recommend is if you want to know what Agile Coaching is, look at the Agile Coaching Growth Wheel. 

And then one competency, I didn't mention is self-mastery. So in the middle of the wheel, or the hub of the wheel, is self-mastery, which is sort of coaching the way I think of it is, coaching from the inside out. Meaning, coaching, to be a good coach, you have to actually have internal skills like emotional intelligence and presence and things like that. Humility before, so walking your talk before you tell other people to do something. So it helps if you're, if you're an agile coach on the inside before you start agile coaching on the outside. And that's what self -mastery represents. 

YC: You touched upon a lot of the different either competencies and skills that we address in this podcast in terms of emotional intelligence, humility, and that we have talked in previous episodes. When it comes to a person or an organization saying, Hey, I need an agile coach. How does that happen? Because usually it's a, just to give a specific sample, it will be an organization. They're looking to have either tech teams or other types of teams. They want them to work with high performing and adopt agile practices, perhaps, like do scrum, SAFe, whatever that may be. So they want to go in. So when is a good time to say, hey, we need to bring an agile coach to this situation? And also, is the expectation that, hey, the agile coach will tell us exactly what to do. How does that work? 

BG: So, so finding or bringing in an agile coach, I'll start there. It's, I, I think it goes back to what you said. I would, I would rather not focus on the role or the job description, and I would rather focus, everyone, focus on coaching skills. So for example, Scrum Master, we haven't mentioned the term Scrum Master. I've always felt that a Scrum Master is an agile coach. When I look at a Scrum Master, I see an agile coach. Now they certainly don't have it. Most of them don't have that in their title. And, and most of them are, are fairly, you know, sort of, you know, less experienced. 

So they may not have a lot of agile coaching growth wheel competencies, but they are a coach in mind. They're a team coach. And what I want them to do is strengthen their skills. So I think finding a coach is an early step, but you don't have to have a coach. You have, you know, you could have someone, a senior developer who has some experience and some of the soft skills we were talking about, some of the self mastery skills. And, and that's hard to find those and they're important. 

So finding those and they have the, the soft skills to effectively coach the team, or it could be a Scrum Master that's stepping out and amplifying that part of their role, or it could be a, it could be an outside coach or an inside coach. It could be part-time coach, but find someone to help guide you. Now, as far as do they tell you what to do, I think, I think sometimes, and what I'll use is, and you probably heard this, there's a, there's a team maturity metaphor called Shu Ha Ri. 
And Shu Ha Ri says that teams have different levels of experience. A Shu team is a beginning team. A Ha team is sort of a mid -level experience team, and a Ri team is a very experienced team. Well, if you're a coach, if you think about that continuum, I need to shut up if it's a Ri team and just get out of their way and maybe provide some very lightweight advice, because they know what they're doing. 

Now, they may have blind spots, and that's where I can help them as a coach. So it's a very light -handed coach. If I go to Shu, the Shu part of the continuum, a very, like a team that can't spell agile, and they're just learning from the beginning, they probably, they might need to be told what to do a little bit until they get their feet underneath them. I do think coaches need to have the situational awareness. Shuhari is a nice metaphor to have the situational awareness of what team am I coaching? Again, it goes back to don’t be a hammer coach, where you hammer all, you hammer all the nails the same way. You have to be situationally aware. 

One quick thing, I think the part of the mindset for a coach, and this goes to self -mastery is mindset as well, is that you serve the team, they don't serve you. Or you serve whoever you're coaching. So you're serving their agendaand not, they're not serving you. So that mindset, no matter whether it's Shuhari, can help put up some guardrails so you don't get too obnoxious or too prescriptive as a coach. 

YC: I loved the, the title of your book in terms of Extraordinarily Badass Agile Coaching. What makes a coach badass? 

BG: It's a good question. I don't know. I don't even know if I'm a badass. I like the term. I think what, what I'm trying to convey with the term is I want bold coaching. I want people that aren't stuck in one way of doing things. I want, I want coaches who are continuously learning and continuously becoming more well -rounded and are open to feedback. You know, one of the things I found with a lot of agile coaches, it's funny in a sad way, I guess. But a lot of coaches that I ran into, it turns out that they're really good coaches externally, but they don't like to be coached themselves. They almost border with being not coachable. So it's easy to coach others, and it's not so easy to be coached yourself. 

I actually think of badass really leans into their self-mastery really leans into their humility. So what I'm saying, they walk their talk, even when it's hard to walk their talk. And they do it personally, they role model the behaviors that they're talking about. And that's challenging depending on your environment, your employer, the culture, but still they lean into that as much as they can. So badassery, I think, is continuous learning, self-mastery, and really walking your talk are aspects of it. 

But don't get hung up on the term, everyone. And if you don't like it, well, then change it. If it offends you, then change it to another term. I think I think it's quite inspiring. It's like, I'm going to be a badass coach today. So I think that's the way I intended it. 
YC: Now, it's important that you talk about self -mastery and us as coaches being open and having the humility to be coached. And you've talked about having a peer  in terms of as we gain mastery and in, in coaching other teams. How do we know that we are open to be coached? And also what happens if we have to work with other coaches that we want to have that peer relationship, but maybe we perceive, Hey, they don't necessarily want to be coached? 

BG: I think, again, it's the same thing. You can't coach someone if they don't want to be coached. So, so that's another thing we didn't talk about. But I think part of bad -assery is trying not to force yourself. Forcing your coaching onto someone is probably the least effective coaching. You, I talk about push versus pull. You want to do less pushing, and you want your clients to do more pulling. So I think that would be the same thing with natural coaches. 

So what I would say is, one of the hallmarks of a natural coach is having a coach and having a mentor. I don't know if there's a magic number. I have multiple coaches, and I have multiple mentors. And they vary over time. And they gave me feedback. And I'm incredibly, you know, thankful for that. The other part of it is I'm also a coach for other people, and I also mentor other folks. So I think you learn from both sides of each equation. You know, coaching, being coached and coaching, being a mentor, being mentored and mentoring can really help for that. And, and find the right coach who will speak truth to you that will give you an honest view of if you're being a little stubborn or if you're a coach as well, is very healthy. Well, then you want someone to be sharing that with you. You want to create safety in that relationship so you can hear that feedback. So what was the second part of your question? I forget. 

YC: Yeah, I was saying, I think you answered the question in regards of, well, people who don't wanna be necessarily coached, how do we go about that? So I think you've addressed in terms of the person whoever we work with, we wanna go ahead and the person has to be, you know, eager to coached. 

BG: Absolutely. I think one thing real quickly is modeling. So let's say you're working with someone in a team and they don't wanna be coached. 
Well, then ask them to coach you. So you can model the behavior, right? That you want them to sort of consider. So you're not, you're being coached and you're showing vulnerability to invite them into your coaching. And you're also showing them what good looks like. When I say modeling, I think as a coach, you're role modeling good behavior. And that might, that might. sort of inspire them, or that might cause them to reflect and say, you know what, I don't have a coach. And Yadi's doing a great job of taking my feedback, and she's showing great vulnerability. Why am I not doing that? So it might, it might create that. So modeling can be very powerful. 

I have a joke for you, too, real quickly. I think, well, no, it's not a joke. It's a real quick. So I was, I was a volunteer for the Scrum Alliance. They have coaching retreats. And the coaching retreat gets together about 75 coaches of various skill levels. And for, I think, like 3 days that we get together, and they do sprints, and they do projects, and they work together in teams. And they do research projects and things like that. And it's, it's a pretty powerful learning experience. And I and a friend were volunteering. We were the facilitators of it. And we, we kicked things off, and we had, it was full, and there were 75 raging, passionate, agile coaches, and they formed teams. 
And they went into the rooms, and to learn and to grow and to learn from each other. And then someone ran out, and I, and I was just resting at the front desk, just because it was a lot of work. And someone runs out from one of the rooms, and it's like, we have a conflict, right? The coaches aren't getting along. We, we need a coach, we need a coach for the coaches. And my partner and I looked, and they're like, Oh, no, we haven't planned for coaches for the coaches. I ran in, I was like an emergency, I was like a fire jumper. I ran into the room. And it was, it was a mess. And so what I, what I'm saying is, you know, it's a, it's a joke, but it's also, I think, a truth, actual coaches are some of the worst people to coach and to form teams. And what that says is we have some room to grow. So if we're ever listening to this, this self -mastery and self -awareness and learning to grow is, we need it in our community. And I guess we saw we're being type A personalities, you know, we go from this stance of we have the expertise and all that.

YC: So yeah, regarding the day in the life of a coach was I want to kind of drill down a little bit more of what does that look like, because an organization program manager listened to us right now says, Oh, I need an agile coach. And then they go and put that person into like managing tools or things like that, or saying this person is going to work and prepare a plan. How could you describe a day in the life of an organization on agile coaching? Understanding that it varies, but at least just so people can grasp an idea and discuss what it's not when it comes to. 

BG: Having, or coaching, in general, in an organization? It's a good question. I'm not going to tell people what a day in the life is. What I am going to tell you is that every agile coach, so, so one of the important things about a coach is to, at the very beginning of a coaching assignment. if you get asked to coach a team, or a leadership group, or some individuals, or whatever, as a coach, the worst thing you can do is dive in and start coaching, and start doing whatever someone's asking you to do. Because they may not know what coaching is and isn't. 

And they may not know what part of their ask you can do and not do, skill -wise, etc. So what I think there's two things. I think entry into a coaching situation is really important. Part of entry is explaining agile coaching, just like we did earlier. That's where the agile coaching growth wheel can actually be helpful. You can share it with a client, someone you're coaching. Very quickly, don't go into the weeds, but very quickly talk to them for 5 or 10 minutes and say can I please share with you what agile coaching is and what it isn't? And there's a wonderful framework that I apply in my coaching called the Agile Coaching Growth Wheel. Let's, if we can, let's go through it. So that's, that's Part 1, is explaining as succinctly as you can what it is and what it isn't. 

The second thing is, is defining the agenda with your client, like what you are going to do. So you don't just dive in and start doing things. You actually have to set up a coaching plan and a coaching agenda. And it's not just the client's view. You have to merge it with your capabilities. Not just your skills, but your availability could be part of it, right? Your availability, your skills, your comfort, right? All of those things, your competencies. So that's part of establishing it. So what is Agile Coaching? And then what am I going to do for you? And what are we going to do together?

 The other thing I would say is try not, agile coaching is a collaborative activity. Most clients are going to try to delegate things to you. Yadi, I want you to write a plan for me. Right. And I want you to write an agile transformation strategy plan for me and give it to me. Well, that's, that's a delegation. That's a hierarchical relationship. Most folks try to treat agile coaches like that because they don't know better. And what you want to do is try to pivot it to, you're, let's do that, but let's do it together. Let's, let's co -create the strategy together. Let's co -create the outcomes we're looking for. And you and I will partner on this. So the more you can partner with your team, a Scrum team, the more you can partner with anyone you're coaching, the better the outcomes are going to be. 

I'm not saying you can't, you can't do individual tasks, but the major activities of coaching should be part of a plan. And then it should be co -created, in my experience. And then you start, and then you start executing. So, a day in the life then is executing your plan. And then periodically, periodically check in, and you may need to pivot quite a bit. You may need to adjust your understanding, you may need to adjust your outcomes, and then just check in with your stakeholder or, or stakeholders. So don't dive in. Establish those 2 things first, with anyone you're coaching. 

YC: Yeah, and it seems that by doing co -creation, it also helps with that adoption part of, of the plan, because they feel like part of it, and they want to go ahead and continue making the plan happen. How do you draw on, or what do you draw on when it comes from coaching? So what are, what is the foundation or concepts that you generally use when it comes to, you know, drawing to be able to coach other folks? 

BG: I think one of the things, remember, I talked about those 2 paths, people come in from a domain -centric path, or they come in from an outside -then domain. And there's a lot of coaches, early on, I think people were coming in from, from technical or from, from the domains, like I did. But then maybe, you know, within the last 5 to 8 years, a lot of folks have been diving into Agile because it's growing. You know, folks come in, take a Scrum Master class, and they become a Scrum Master, but they have a healthcare background or a teaching background, etc. 
And, and one of the problems with that, I mean, you can do that, but you really need to shore up your, at your Agile Lean practitioner. I think as a foundation, there's 2 foundations for any Agile. coach. 

Self -mastery is a foundation. Your self -awareness writes your inside out, and then your agile lean chops is a foundation. And if you're weak on either one of those, you really need to strengthen those up. So that's what I need. When I'm coaching, because I mean, I've been practicing agile for many years, I have a natural affinity. I have lots of experience in the agile lean. And I bring bits and pieces of that stories, for example. 

If you, if you have experience, you have stories to tell. If you don't have experience, you have no stories in your toolbox. So you're going to have to create some stories, etc. And that becomes helpful. So those are my two. And I think the self -mastery is a silent foundation. And the agile lean chops is a really, sort of strong foundation. The other thing is, if you're doing enterprise coaching or transformational coaching or leadership coaching, then having some experience in organizational dynamics and organizational change is really helpful. And I happen to have some depth in both of those areas. But you have to develop that. You have to, you know, bring that to bear. And then sort of, it's almost like you have a library and you have to tap into those stories and situationally when you're coaching. 
But the other thing, real quickly, sometimes, is it about the coach or is it about the client? What do you think? Oh, in terms of listening and stories, it's about the client. So we need to bring our experience, but also we need to shut up and listen and ask good questions and make it, make sure that we're not making it about us. We're making it about them. So there's this balancing act to be struck of, yes, I have all this experience, but what do you have and what do you think or react to this story I just told you? This is something I might try, but what do you think you'd like to try? 

YC: I like that because working and myself as well as coaches, we tend to talk a little bit more, maybe too much. The part of listening is very important. And that's one of the competencies that you mentioned. So in terms of building some of those competencies, like self -awareness, listening, what are some of the key ways you'll recommend us to master those skills and competencies?

BG:  I think a lot of them are tacit skills, or they're experiential skills. So I do think part of learning is going like reading a book, Lisa Adkins’ books a historical action coaching book, and you should read that. My badass book might follow hers, but read hers first. 
So there's some book reading you can do. There's some certification classes you can take. But I really think in order to become a well -rounded coach, it really is practice. So I would say is that whole notion of, are you, do you have a coach? Are you being coached? Are you being mentored? Pair coaching is really important. Are you a member, an active member of a community of practice at your job? And if there's no community of practice, start one up. 
Try to start one up so you can learn from each other. 

Go out into the community and meet up groups and hang out with coaches. For example, I live in Raleigh -Durham, North Carolina. And we have an agile group here, and we have an agile coach's breakfast once a month, first Monday of the month, or Friday, first Friday of the month, at 7.30 in the morning for an hour. Maybe 40 coaches get together, and sometimes we practice coaching, etc. And then, and we're not unique. There's other groups like that. So I think the real learning is collaborating with like -minded coaches, watching how they coach, practicing coaching, etc., getting some supervision, having someone who's mentoring you and then mentoring someone else, bringing someone up. That's the way you get the skills. Unfortunately, I wish it was easy. I wish it was like a 2 -day class, and then you could suddenly miraculously become a coach.

 But these are, you're dealing with humans. And human beings are incredibly complex, and you need to sort of be complex in your skill set. And so, so it's not, I don't think it's easy. Yadi, one thing, one thing I see today is, a lot of folks, I want to be an agile coach, and I want to do it in three weeks or less. And I want to make the money. I want to, you know, it's like cha -ching. And, and it's not it doesn't take forever. But it takes, it takes continuous learning, like we're talking about. And it does take time. And you want to follow other folks. You really want to watch how other people are coaching, etc. And that's where the learning, that's where that tacit learning, because it's hard to describe it. 

So you have to be watching it being done and doing it yourself. That is wonderful. And the emphasis on continuous learning, the humility to keep, to take feedback, and allowing us to build those competencies, and the experience as well, learning from the customers, too. 
YC: So this is wonderful advice. And I will be sharing, through the podcast notes, all this information about the wheel, and the Lisa Adkins book that you mentioned Wonderful book as well, and your book. So now, to close up, how people can get in touch with you? Or if they have any questions for you? What's the best way? 

BG: Best way, I'm LinkedIn. So I'm on LinkedIn. and then I have a website which is I have an alter ego or persona called the agile hyphen moose. Okay. So you can reach out to me on LinkedIn is one way. Another way to listen to what I'm talking about is I do a podcast called the Meta, M -E -T -A hyphen cast and my friend Josh Anderson and I've been we've been doing that for actually over 14 years I think. So we're almost we're almost like an old couple doing podcasts for a long time and then agile hyphen moose is a nice way to listen to my blogs and things like that. So those are three easy ways. 

YC: Wonderful and why the moose by the way? 

BG: I don't know, you see the moose over my shoulder.

YC:  Yes I see you have a big picture of a moose on the background so yes. 

BG: I used to live in Connecticut and I vacationed in Maine a lot and Maine has in the US has a lot of and so I just got fond of the animal. And then the tagline, I'll share my tagline, if you can teach a moose to be agile, you can teach anyone to be agile. But it's just a tagline, moose are not really so agile, but. That would be interesting, how to teach a moose to be agile. 

YC: Exactly. Well, thank you so much, Bob, for your time. 

BG: Yadi, you're welcome. It was a pleasure.